Devotee:<\/strong> Have you read \u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da\u2019s Final Order<\/em>? And if so then how can you say that the \u1e5btviks<\/em> are the 14th sahajiy\u0101<\/em> samprad\u0101ya<\/em>?<\/p>\nNarasi\u1e45gha Mah\u0101r\u0101ja:<\/strong> Actually the \u1e5btviks<\/em> are not a samprad\u0101ya<\/em>. By saying so I am simply using the word loosely. The \u1e5btvik<\/em> conception is in the apa-samprad\u0101ya<\/em> category or the anti-party section. Apa-samprad\u0101ya<\/em> means to preach against the principles and practices of pure devotional service and sahajiy\u0101<\/em> means to imitate the real process of pure devotional service. In this way the \u1e5btviks<\/em> have become both sahajiy\u0101 <\/em>and apa-samprad\u0101ya<\/em> \u2014their process eliminates the real thing and tries to establish an illusory standard under false pretenses.<\/p>\nIn the same way one could consider the \u1e5btviks<\/em> as M\u0101y\u0101v\u0101d\u012bs. M\u0101y\u0101v\u0101da means the philosophy of illusion. There is no actual M\u0101y\u0101v\u0101da philosophy mentioned in the scriptures nor is there any \u1e5btvik<\/em> system mentioned in the scriptures. So to establish either of these two conclusions is illusory.<\/p>\nIt is a symptom of Kali-yuga that many concocted methods of devotional service will emerge, but these will not be accepted by the intelligent class of devotees.<\/p>\n
\u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da (A. C. Bhaktivedanta Sv\u0101m\u012b Mah\u0101r\u0101ja) has said, \u201cThe next symptom of the age of Kali is that principles of religion, which are spotless white, like the white lotus flower, will be attacked by the uncultured \u015b\u016bdra<\/em> population of the age. They will declare themselves as adherents of no religious principles and many \u2018isms\u2019 and cults will spring up in Kali-yuga only to kill the spotless bull of religion.\u201d<\/p>\nInstructions regarding the actual science of K\u1e5b\u1e63\u1e47a consciousness and the process of pure devotional service have been passed down from guru<\/em> to disciple in the parampar\u0101<\/em> from the most ancient times until the present day. When we are connected with the parampar\u0101<\/em> system, we do not feel the necessity for concocted methods of devotional service because all our anticipations are met by K\u1e5b\u1e63\u1e47a, guru<\/em> and Vai\u1e63\u1e47ava.<\/p>\nDevotee:<\/strong> That\u2019s true but there are no pure devotees present and therefore seeing the situation \u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da has introduced a new system of parampar\u0101<\/em>.<\/p>\nNarasi\u1e45gha Mah\u0101r\u0101ja:<\/strong> What you say is all concoction. Have you seen all the devotees of K\u1e5b\u1e63\u1e47a and Mah\u0101prabhu present on this planet? No. But you condemn everyone to your own level of consciousness. Like Duryodhana\u2014 he could not see any qualified person anywhere. Whereas Yudhi\u1e63\u1e6dhira saw that everyone was more qualified than himself. Persons with the mentality of Duryodhana can never understand who is a pure Vai\u1e63\u1e47ava\u2014 yet those like Yudhi\u1e63\u1e6dhira always find the company of pure devotees.<\/p>\nThe fact is that there are pure Vai\u1e63\u1e47avas on this planet (always have been, always will be) but you have not taken the time to search them out. Secondly, what you have said about \u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da not seeing any qualified person is also not true. He did not see a disciple fit to become the head of his ISKCON society and therefore he requested everyone to work in cooperation with each other (with a GBC at the head). He said, \u201cTogether I have some hope that you will do something.\u201d But he did not say that his disciples were unfit to carry on the parampar\u0101<\/em>.<\/p>\nOne who introduces new systems, not authorized by the \u015b\u0101stra<\/em> and previous \u0101c\u0101ryas<\/em> only creates a disturbance in society.<\/p>\n\u015bruti-sm\u1e5bti-pur\u0101\u1e47\u0101di pa\u00f1car\u0101tra-vidhi\u1e41 vin\u0101
\n<\/em>aik\u0101ntik\u012b harer bhaktir utp\u0101t\u0101yaiva kalpate<\/em><\/p>\n\u201cDevotional service to the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literature like the Upani\u1e63ads, Pur\u0101\u1e47as, N\u0101rada-Pa\u00f1car\u0101tra<\/em>, etc., is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society. (Bhakti-ras\u0101m\u1e5bta-sindhu.<\/em>1.2.101.)<\/p>\n\u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da never created or concocted new systems. He simply said, \u201cDo as I am doing.\u201d<\/p>\n
Devotee:<\/strong> Actually \u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da was the first sanny\u0101s\u012b<\/em> to perform the marriage function ceremony for his disciples so that is at least one example of his starting a new system.<\/p>\nNarasi\u1e45gha Mah\u0101r\u0101ja:<\/strong> That is a foolish argument. Performing marriage or not performing marriage ceremonies has nothing to do with the parampar\u0101<\/em> or the process of pure devotional service. That simply comes within \u2018ways and means\u2019 to spread K\u1e5b\u1e63\u1e47a consciousness \u2014it is not a valid example of what we are talking about.<\/p>\nDevotee:<\/strong> Nonetheless, I think it is safe to say that since none of \u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da\u2019s disciples are pure devotees that no one should initiate.<\/p>\nNarasi\u1e45gha Mah\u0101r\u0101ja:<\/strong> This is another one of your concocted statements. Show me even one place where \u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da has said or written that none of his disciples are pure devotees. You cannot.<\/p>\nOn the contrary \u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da many times stated the qualifications to become a pure devotee and insisted that this was the only business of his disciples. He did not say, \u201cNone of my disciples are pure devotees.\u201d He actually stated many times just the opposite. First we should know what pure devotional service is.<\/p>\n
any\u0101bhil\u0101\u1e63it\u0101 \u015b\u016bnya\u1e41 j\u00f1\u0101na-karm\u0101dy-an\u0101v\u1e5btam
\n<\/em>\u0101nuk\u016blyena k\u1e5b\u1e63\u1e47\u0101nu-\u015b\u012blana\u1e41 bhaktir uttam\u0101<\/em><\/p>\n\u201cFirst class devotional service must be devoid of all material desires, knowledge obtained by monistic philosophy, and frutive action. The devotee must constantly serve K\u1e5b\u1e63\u1e47a favorably, as K\u1e5b\u1e63\u1e47a desires.\u201d (Bhakti-ras\u0101m\u1e5bta-sindhu 1.1.11)<\/p>\n
Devotee: Yes. But…<\/p>\n
Narasi\u1e45gha Mah\u0101r\u0101ja: But what? Do you believe in \u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da and what he says or do you think he spoke nonsense? What is your position?<\/p>\n
\u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da has stated on many occasions that his disciples were pure devotees to the extent that they follow his instruction. The key is there \u2014in your hand\u2014 simply follow his instruction. In 1975 \u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da commented that he wanted disciples who would follow his instructions and become pure devotees. He said that he would have been satisfied if even one of his disciples had become a pure devotee but that he was fortunate because K\u1e5b\u1e63\u1e47a had sent many pure devotees to become his disciples.<\/p>\n
\u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da told,<\/p>\n
\u201cI want one student who follows my instruction. I don\u2019t want millions. Eka\u015b candras tamo hanti n\u0101 ca t\u0101r\u0101\u1e25-sahasra\u015ba\u1e25<\/em>. If there is one moon in the sky, that is sufficient for illumination. There is no need of millions of stars. So my position is that I want to see that at least one disciple has become pure devotee. Of course, I have got many sincere and pure devotees. That is my good luck. But I would have been satisfied if I could find out one only.\u201d<\/p>\nDevotee:<\/strong> But the final order of \u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da is there.<\/p>\nNarasi\u1e45gha Mah\u0101r\u0101ja: Yes, the final order is there, the first order is there and the second order is there. All the orders are there and all these orders are the same, \u201cBecome pure devotee.\u201d<\/p>\n
If not even a single disciple (as you are proposing) becomes pure devotee then the mission of the spiritual master is a failure. If no disciple has become a pure devotee then people will begin to rumor that the spiritual masters\u2019 teachings have no potency or that he has no mercy to bless his disciples, etc. So when you say that no disciple of \u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da is qualified to become guru<\/em> then in effect you are saying that \u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da and his mission have failed. It is intolerable to hear such nonsense \u2014I cannot agree with you.<\/p>\nDevotee:<\/strong> They can become \u015b\u012bk\u1e63\u0101-guru<\/em> but not d\u012bk\u1e63\u0101-guru<\/em>.<\/p>\nNarasi\u1e45gha Mah\u0101r\u0101ja:<\/strong> Where do you find such statements in the authorized \u015b\u0101stra<\/em>? You are simply speaking without any \u015b\u0101stric<\/em> context. And what you say is only confused logic. The \u015b\u012bk\u1e63\u0101-guru<\/em> is categorically in a higher position than the d\u012bk\u1e63\u0101-guru<\/em>. The \u015b\u012bk\u1e63\u0101-guru<\/em> is the manifestation of \u015ar\u012b Govinda-deva, the Lord of abhidheya-tattva<\/em> and the d\u012bk\u1e63\u0101-guru<\/em> is the manifestation of Madana-mohanaji the Lord of sambandha-tattva<\/em>. The \u015b\u012bk\u1e63\u0101-guru<\/em> is categorically higher than the d\u012bk\u1e63\u0101-guru<\/em>.<\/p>\nIn Caitanya-carit\u0101m\u1e5bta<\/em> the position of d\u012bk\u1e63\u0101<\/em> and \u015b\u012bk\u1e63\u0101-gurus<\/em> are mentioned. Categorically it is such, but to make discrimination between different gurus<\/em> is an offense. Both are equal manifestations of K\u1e5b\u1e63\u1e47a. If one is a pure devotee according to the measure of the \u015b\u0101stra<\/em> then he is fit to become either \u015b\u012bk\u1e63\u0101<\/em> or d\u012bk\u1e63\u0101-guru<\/em> or both.<\/p>\nDevotee:<\/strong> But so many, what you are calling pure devotees, have fallen down \u2014a pure devotee cannot fall down.<\/p>\nNarasi\u1e45gha Mah\u0101r\u0101ja:<\/strong> Oh. This is very interesting point that you are making. On one hand you say that a pure devotee cannot fall down but on the other hand you are of the opinion that all living entities in the material world have fallen from eternal l\u012bl\u0101<\/em> with K\u1e5b\u1e63\u1e47a in Goloka or Vaiku\u1e47\u1e6dha, is it not?<\/p>\nDevotee:<\/strong> Yes. But…<\/p>\nNarasi\u1e45gha Mah\u0101r\u0101ja:<\/strong> So, in the spiritual world, were these fallen souls pure devotees or not? If they are not pure devotees, then how can they be with K\u1e5b\u1e63\u1e47a in eternal l\u012bl\u0101<\/em>? Therefore, by your own admission a pure devotee can fall down, is it not?<\/p>\nDevotee:<\/strong> Well….<\/p>\nNarasi\u1e45gha Mah\u0101r\u0101ja:<\/strong> Why many of \u015ar\u012bla Prabhup\u0101da\u2019s disciples have fallen down you do not know. Despite spending hours together discussing and gloating over their fall down, you still do not know why they have fallen. You do not know the secrets of devotional service. How can a faithful disciple fall from K\u1e5b\u1e63\u1e47a consciousness, especially after having rendered so much valuable and intimate service to the spiritual master? You should stop to consider. You should consult the senior Vai\u1e63\u1e47avas and the scripture and then you will come to know that such disciples can fall down only due to apar\u0101dha<\/em> and particularly Vai\u1e63\u1e47ava-apar\u0101dha<\/em>.<\/p>\n<\/div><\/div><\/div><\/div><\/div><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"\u201cPr\u0101k\u1e5bta-rasa \u0100ra\u1e47ya Chedin\u012b \u2013 Cutting the Jungle of Misconception\u201d is a compilation of twenty-one articles written in the later 90\u2019s and early 2000s by \u015ar\u012bla B.G. Narasi\u1e45gha Mah\u0101r\u0101ja. This book exposes various philosophical misconceptions that are prevalent within the Gau\u1e0d\u012bya Vai\u1e63\u1e47ava world at present, and establishes the proper understanding according to guru, s\u0101dhu and \u015b\u0101stra.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":6169,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"content-type":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[216],"tags":[206,217],"krishna_talk_article":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.rupanugabhajanashram.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6236"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.rupanugabhajanashram.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.rupanugabhajanashram.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.rupanugabhajanashram.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/4"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.rupanugabhajanashram.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=6236"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/www.rupanugabhajanashram.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6236\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":8721,"href":"https:\/\/www.rupanugabhajanashram.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6236\/revisions\/8721"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.rupanugabhajanashram.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/6169"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.rupanugabhajanashram.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=6236"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.rupanugabhajanashram.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=6236"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.rupanugabhajanashram.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=6236"},{"taxonomy":"krishna_talk_article","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.rupanugabhajanashram.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/krishna_talk_article?post=6236"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}